“Vibing with DJ Esquire”: A Chat with Aaron Fischer, Datadog Commercial Counsel and ASF Legal Services Principal Attorney

“Just because you’re not wearing a suit, doesn’t mean you’re not working.” 

Aaron and I chat about how you don’t have to “look like a lawyer” to be one, and about his fascinating career path, which landed him at tech company Datadog, where he gets to work at a place that’s like “going to work in a spaceship.” Aaron began working as a DJ in his teens (kinda like the Beastie Boys!), later became a nightclub manager, and, during law school, interned at Atlantic Records—but later ended up in the tech world, courtesy of his background in intellectual property law. (Although, note, for you musicians out there, he does still provide legal advice to artists through his firm, ASF Legal Services.)

We talk about risk, and why it’s important to take it both in your life and in your career, and how understanding it as a concept can help you better advise your clients; why you should learn to “speak the language” of your industry; and finally how—no matter the industry—relationships are everything. Plus—how entertainment companies are not always the bad guy, and why creative people need support so they can continue to do the important work—of creating.

We also discuss how, to figure out the area of law in which you want to specialize, “be purposeful” in finding those people who are doing the work you want to do, in the industries in which you want to work. According to Aaron, even if it's cool to work with music artists, that shouldn’t be your only motivation…. Aaron also reminds us of some universal legal advice, a.k.a. what your parents likely told you growing up: everyone needs an attorney!

And, of course, where would we be without a drinking story? I’ll give you a hint: it involves a 90 year-old’s birthday party, chance encounters on an airplane’s first class cabin, and Cash Cash, a popular EDM band best known for their hit Take Me Home.

The music featured on this week's episode is “Entering the Bar Theme Music,” composed by Sam Carden for Entering the Bar®.

Business Shenanigans and the Tip of the Spear: A Conversation with Marc Minor, Financial Services Expert and Seton Hall Law Professor

On this episode, I chat with Marc Minor, who is a busy man—he is founder and president of CJM Consulting; serves as Marstone, Inc.’s Chief Compliance Officer; and is also an adjunct professor at Seton Hall’s law school! Marc is currently teaching a course that covers everything FinTech: robo-advisors, big data, AI, digital currency, cybersecurity, and more.

We discuss Marc’s pivot from investigative journalism to law (thanks to a helpful journalism advisor) and his discovery that the law is “maybe the best tool ever” to “cast light” and “root out injustice.” To some degree, almost every role Marc has chosen has served to protect the individual and “root out injustice”—as well as develop his experience in “business shenanigan” lawyering, as he calls it (!).

Marc first discovered his love of "business shenanigans" when he served as an associate in private practice at Vorys, Sater, Seymour and Pease LLP. From that point, Marc has worked to protect the investing public in a variety of roles: from bureau chief for the New York and New Jersey Attorney General’s offices, to enforcement director with the Philadelphia Stock Exchange, to senior counsel with FINRA, to Assistant Attorney General for the New York Attorney General. And before that, Marc specialized in criminal law at both the Ohio Attorney General’s office and the Ohio Public Defender’s office—whew!

Marc and I chat about the transition from advising a client, to becoming the client (Marc likens it to “being shot out of a cannon”!). Marc also explains the process he used as a regulator to weigh enforcement actions, and the delicate balance involved between protecting the investing public—while ensuring continued market innovation.

And what about when Marc is not wearing his “law hat”? Well, he turns on WBGO and get some creative writing in during the late night hours. (In fact, Marc wrote a children’s book in law school—between classes! Color me impressed.) We talk about how writing can be an “act of catharsis” and how, as writers, we decide what might “make the cut”; the slow road to improvement; and the necessity of developing humility (and a thick skin!) in the editing process.

And since you’re listening to Entering the Bar, of course, Marc answers the most dangerous question of all—with diplomacy. Apparently after the bar, you should always “take your revelry to Dayton!” (Evidently, what happens in Dayton, stays in Dayton—at least during post-bar celebrations.)

Marc also imparts some sage advice for would-be lawyers: don’t wake up your study partners in the middle of the night to talk about exams! And finally—and even more importantly: don’t be afraid to take opportunities that might initially appear to be “outside of your lane.”

The music featured on this week's episode is “Entering the Bar Theme Music,” composed by Sam Carden for Entering the Bar®.

Liz's Legal Lyrical Literature: A Special Episode for the New Year

On this week’s episode, I welcome listeners to join me as we enter the New Year, with some legal poetry from yours truly, as well as my own updated spin on a poem entitled “Law and Poetry” by James Williams, a fellow lawyer-poet who practiced law and wrote poetry back in the 1880’s. (Hint: my own version contains a few references to “current” celebrities with legal training!)

To read more poetry by Mr. Williams, you can find republication of his two works, “Briefless Ballads and Legal Lyrics” on Amazon and Project Gutenberg, and “Ventures in Verse,” also on Amazon and Project Gutenberg.

To all of my listeners: may you have a happy, healthy, and productive 2020!

The music featured on this week's episode is “Entering the Bar Theme Music,” composed by Sam Carden for Entering the Bar®.

The “Side Hustle”: A Chat with Katie Lara, Children's Privacy Advocate and Blogger Extraordinaire

On this episode, I interview Katie Lara, travel and beauty writer and senior attorney at the Children’s Advertising Review Unit (CARU), a part of the Better Business Bureau.

As part of her day job, Katie helps to provide valuable guidance to companies by, for instance, keeping marketing newbies from committing grievous errors...like locking children in a freezer (“so not ok!”), and testing out mobile app games (sounds like something I’d like to try!). And then there’s Katie’s ever-evolving “side hustle,” which started with her first blog, Smarty Panties (now katielara.com). While continuing her blog, Katie also got into the freelance game: writing for Fodor’s, the Huffington Post, and Forbes Travel (among others)—all while working full-time.

Katie and I chat about the interrelatedness of advertising and privacy, as well as the challenge to remaining authentic and relevant in today’s world of Instagram influencers. And, as always, we have a few good “bar” stories—Katie tells how a lost ID almost resulted in her having to take the bar again (oh, horrors!) to convincing law firm partners to dance on stage at a dueling piano bar.

Finally, Katie has advice which applies equally to being a lawyer and a writer: be consistent, be professional, and don’t be afraid to network—especially when it involves free booze!

If you’d like to peruse (or better yet, subscribe to) Katie’s blog, check out katielara.com, or if you want to read her pieces published elsewhere on the web, you can find them here, at katielara.com/press/. And for those interested specifically in travel writing, Katie references Travel Massive as a useful networking site (travelmassive.com).

The music featured on this week's episode is “Entering the Bar Theme Music,” composed by Sam Carden for Entering the Bar®.

Improvisation and Collaboration: A Chat with Alex Pergament, U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals Career Law Clerk

This week’s episode of Entering the Bar® is with Alex Pergament, a career law clerk at the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. Alex, who is New Jersey-based, also moonlights on the side as a musician, photographer, and artist.

On this episode, we chat about improvisation as an “affirmation of faith,” and collaboration in law and in art, as well as how, at its base, both art and law seek to help people “see” better—just in different ways.

We also talk about NaNoWrimo (and the Artist’s Way!), the act of channeling energy through “acts of restriction” (i.e., rules and laws), allowing yourself the freedom to “follow your own muse,” and, in a nod to listening law students, how social norms play into the legal concept of the “reasonable person.”

We also chat about some of Alex’s past and current projects, such as Helga + Carl, a collaborative project exploring the intersection of law and art, as well as his ongoing musical improvisational groups After School Orchestra and Yuuge, and why you should always “trust your own value system” when it comes to creating your own career path in the law.

And of course, since you’re listening to “Entering the Bar,” we talk about the Thirsty Thursday kegs in law school (which is maybe why he enjoyed it so much—just kidding, Alex!).

You can find out more about National Novel Writing Month (“NaNoWrimo”) here; and about Yuuge, here. You can find out more about After School Orchestra, here; watch a video recording of the Orchestra at work in the studio, here (or just listen, here); and listen to the Orchestra’s sister group, After School Activities, here.

The music featured on this week's episode (and all future episodes) is called “Entering the Bar Theme Music,” composed by Sam Carden for Entering the Bar®.

Puppet Ponies and a Slow Saturday Night: A Conversation with Cara Parmigiani, Attorney-At-Law

On this episode, I speak with Cara Parmigiani, solo practitioner and multi-talented comic book artist, writer, producer, martial arts practitioner—and new mother. (From now on, I’ll simply call call her my “hero lawyer,” clearly!)

We discuss Cara’s ongoing creative venture, called “Pony and Pony: Ponies-at-Law,” about the adventures of Tristan and Pascal, sibling puppet ponies (and proud Seton Hall Law graduates) intent on opening a law practice. Originally a comic, Cara first turned this concept into a short film, then into a webisode called “Pony Radio.” She’s now in the process of transforming it into a musical. (Get your tickets before they’re hot, folks!) Cara and I also chat about how a slow Saturday night inspired the film, how her ponies graduated from law school even before she did (natch!) and how she managed to film an amazing number of webisodes in one day. (Hint: it took a lot of organization, some professorial expertise, and a few puppeteers’ patience—and their forearm strength….)

Cara and I also discuss her decision to open a solo practice—on Labor Day, no less—and its many benefits: from managing a variety of legal matters, to helping triage issues at the outset, to the potential to become close with clients. And, of course, the ultimate benefit: never having a boring day!

As for those interested in opening a solo practice, Cara advises that you shouldn’t “not do something because you’re afraid,” but on the other hand, “don’t commit malpractice!” We discuss the resources out there for those want to follow in her footsteps; the many advantages of a clerkship; and the simple value of attending cases in open court to learn from attorney appearances—both good and bad.

Finally, we chat about the really important stuff: how Cara’s mother was right (hope you’re listening, Cara’s mom!); how Legally Blonde is way more realistic than the Paper Chase (that is, if you want to truly be prepared for law school); and how Seton Hall Law will open a lot of doors—just not any hotel room doors! Plus, the all-important no-drinking-for-24-hours-before-anything-meaningful rule that Cara now has, thanks to Johnny Depp, a hangover, and an infamous hockey game…

You can learn more information about Cara and her practice, here; and about Puppet Ponies, here.

P.S. For those of you with an ear for music, we had a little bit of unintentional accompaniment from the band playing next door…it’s always an experience to record!

P.P.S. And more exciting news! The music featured on this week's episode (and all future episodes) is called “Entering the Bar Theme Music,” composed by Sam Carden for Entering the Bar®.

Death Metal and Dr. Seuss: A Discussion with Jason Wool, Privacy and Cybersecurity Expert

I had the great pleasure of speaking with Jason Wool, an erudite and witty cybersecurity and privacy lawyer at ZwillGen, a boutique Internet and technology law firm. In this episode, we talk about Jason’s 2018 article on cryptographic hashing, what the heck that is, and how it relates to data breach notification laws. We also chat about his propensity for Disney songs and death metal, and the twist of fate that took Jason from his role in reviewing rate regulation as a “NERC-FERC lawyer” (oh-so-Seussian!) to a cybersecurity and privacy advisor.

And, as always, what we talk about when we talk about lawyers: Jason and I chat about his favorite bar in Adams Morgan, DC (sadly, now closed) and his propensity for putting Steely Dan on the jukebox....

You can find Jason’s article, “Does the Cryptographic Hashing of Passwords Qualify for Statutory Breach Notification Safe Harbor?” published by the Journal of Cyber Law and Warfare, here, and his bio and additional (32 or so!) publications here, and here. (Although he does claim to sing a cappella, I can’t guarantee you can find a recording of him anywhere!)

To read up on some of the other sources Jason references as reading material, you can read up on Steven Levy’s history of cryptography, here, and the article by his friend Andy Greenberg, about scary jeep hacking, here.

The sound featured on this week's episode is courtesy of Freesound.org: “Death Grind,” via a CC0 1.0 license.  

Hair Science and Hot Doctors: A Conversation with L’Oreal Counsel Andra Dallas, Claims Substantiation, Research & Innovation

Andra is not only a bi-lingual lawyer, but a marathon runner, painter, and fellow podcast enthusiast! In this episode, we chat about everything from her early involvement in privacy law [@13:40] and the considerations of consumer claims testing (read: she gets to hang out in the lab!) [@3:50; 12:30], to a wild post-bar story [@25] and why taking some time off before law school is not a bad idea….. [@23]. You can find more about Andra, her great hair, and her background as a former New York Law adjunct professor and Better Business Bureau attorney here and here. 

And, not to be missed: Andra gives some timeless advice to law students—and, really, all students [@9:50; 30]. (Note to self: guess I should stop perfuming my resume when applying for a job!)

The music featured on this week's episode is courtesy of the Free Music Archive: Swimming (Swimming) by Ryan Andersen, via a CC BY-NC 4.0 license.  

“Hard blows but fair blows”: A Conversation with Justin Braun, Bronx ADA

In this episode, I chat with Justin Braun, former “Negatones” band member and current Bronx ADA. We delve into the world of defendants’ appeal rights [@:13], what it means to be innocent versus “not guilty” [@:16], and how one can be creative in trial presentations [@:24]. Hint: a little sound engineering background goes a long way! And be sure to listen to the end—Justin recounts a surprising story about serving on law review back in the ’50’s and 60’s [@:38]. (With a caveat: this story is not about him!)

You can read up more on the "Negatones" on SPIN.com, purchase their music on iTunes, and look up Professor Braun at Cardozo Law. And, like all good lawyers, below is a citation to the Court of Appeals case Justin and I discuss:

[@:2] People v Gray, 2016 NY Slip Op 02476 (Ct App 2016), https://law.justia.com/cases/new-york/court-of-appeals/2016/32.html.

The music featured on this week's episode is courtesy of (obviously!) Justin and his band "The Negatones." 

Disco-Loving Lawyer-Coder: A Conversation with Rob MacAdam, Director of Legal Solutions at High Q

In this episode, I chat with Rob Macadam, Director of Legal Solutions for High Q and recovering M&A lawyer. We discuss what it takes to leave the law (a little bravery and a lot of chutzpah!) [@:17], his favorite kind of beer (“real ale”) [@:41], and how you, too, can become a "legal geek" and break into the fast-growing legal tech field [@:35]. Along the way, Rob and I compare notes on what it's like to practice in the U.S. versus the U.K. (although he's never worn a wig!) [@:23].

You can follow Rob on Twitter here; find out more about Richard Susskind, whose eye-opening book, Tomorrow's Lawyers, Rob mentions on the show, here; and read more about legal tech associations and conferences here and here.

The music featured on this week's episode is courtesy of the Free Music Archive: Strum (Capture My Heart) by Phish Funk, via a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 3.0 International License.  

"Only a couple of black folks dancing," and Other Copyright Controversies: A Conversation with Barbara Hoffman, Art Law Pioneer

This week's episode is with Barbara Hoffman, a pioneer in the art law field. We talk about everything from the "law of se," to the fair use doctrine, to strippers at the Pierre Hotel, and much more! And like any good lawyer, here are citations to the cases referenced during our chat:

[@5:10] Ringgold v. Black Entertainment Television, Inc., 126 F.3d 70 (2d Cir. 1997);

[@15:28] Agence France Presse v. Morel, No. 10 Civ. 2730 (WHP), 2011 WL 147718 (S.D.N.Y. Jan. 14, 2011), No. 10-cv-2730 (AJN), 2014 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 155416 (S.D.N.Y. Nov. 3, 2014); and

[@28:10] Cariou v. Prince, 714 F.3d 694 (2d Cir. 2013).

You can purchase Barbara's book, Art and Cultural Heritage: Law, Policy and Practice (also referenced in our discussion), and read more of her art law publications here.

Note: the introductory music for this week's episode is The Ride of the Valkyries, courtesy of a performance license from the National Park Service, under a public domain composition license.

NBA Flops, Computer Nerds, and Fax Machines: A Conversation with Benjamin Wright, Data Security Law Expert

In this episode, I chat with Ben Wright, data security law expert and SANS instructor, about his solo practice and its evolution since the 1980's. Along the way, we talk about what it’s like to teach techies (hint: sports analogies help!) and how Ben solves his thorniest legal issues. Prepare to be entertained!

You can read more about Ben here or read a few of his pieces for his client Netmail (soon to be NetGovern) here, and read up on his current class here.

The introductory music for this week's episode is courtesy of the Free Music Archive: Kai Engel's Walking Barefoot on Grass (Bonus) (Chapter Three/Warm), under a Creative Commons Attribution license.